E85 Testing

[Magnified]

So, as I have long lamented, we have no reliable source of E85 out here around where I live. There are now two - both about 45 miles away. One, when we test it is fairly erratic, nearly always low (less than 85). The other is almost always high (up to 93 at one point). Now, as the DOE allows E85 to be anywhere from 75-85% and still meet the labeling requirements. Several questions:

1. Are you guys regularly testing? If so, what are you seeing?

2. Which would you prefer, given greater experience with the E85 tuning - the one that meets the Federal definition (i.e. between 75 and 85) or the one running above 85 every time?

Obviously if the car is set up to determine the percentages itself and alter tuning on the fly this won't be a big issue, but the variability surprised me.

 

[MaxCarnage]

You should always test your ethanol content, unless you are running a Flex Fuel tune, but with a straight E85 tune you can only swing E% so much before you can run into problems. The number one failure of engines using ethanol comes from people not testing at EVERY fill up. Pump gas E is known to be erratic (some pumps more than others), save your engine and always test. Or run a flex fuel setup that changes on the fly when E content changes. Even with a FF setup especially one using inferred logic, I'd give it some miles before stepping on it, so that the computer can adjust for the content change (if any). I would prefer ethanol content at 85%-90% for the best performance and gains. Keep in mind that the tube testers generally show about 5% higher than what your FF setup will display.

Keep in mind I do NOT currently run E85, but I've done a lot of research on it because I'm considering it myself. Like you, my sources are far away (I can only get it by the barrel). If you run something like Ignite E90, it's E90 all the time, no variation like pump gas. Great for racing. Lastly a FF setup that uses a flex fuel sensor will respond faster to changes of ethanol content than a logic inferred setup.

Taking chances not checking pump ethanol prior to every fill up on an E85 tune is like going to a gas station and pumping blind folded hoping you put the right octane fuel in.

 

[Speedy!]

@MaxCarnage covered it and that pump variability is why I'm playing with flex fuel now. I have a big thread on it actually. Winter around here is usually E70 and summer will be E85+. E is harder to light off in the cold thus the reduction in the winter.

Mike from OSTDyno is working the tune and set my AFR gauge up so I can tell when different levels of E are in the tank. That way I "know' ya know? Curt's from Dusterhoff tuning pretty much mastered the E85 flex stuff and I think he sets the AFR to work the same.

 

[Blkout]

@MaxCarnage covered it and that pump variability is why I'm playing with flex fuel now. I have a big thread on it actually. Winter around here is usually E70 and summer will be E85+. E is harder to light off in the cold thus the reduction in the winter.

Mike from OSTDyno is working the tune and set my AFR gauge up so I can tell when different levels of E are in the tank. That way I "know' ya know? Curt's from Dusterhoff tuning pretty much mastered the E85 flex stuff and I think he sets the AFR to work the same.

Yep.

 

[Phast Hemi]

I've dailied and raced on e85 for 3 years in 2 different cars. The applied methodology is the same on both cars. Zero issues om either car. Both run with same refinement and manners as with the stock calibration. Here are some tips that anyone can follow:
1. Test as often as you can. Not just to determine ethanol content but more importantly to visually inspect the test specimen before filling the tank. I have purchased e85 at a number of different stations that tested anywhere from e75 to e90. My cars have run fine on them all. Here is the concern. Some test samples have almost an opaque white color. Some had what looked like little worms in them. On occasion I would leave the specimen in the tube for a week or longer. The opaque specimen would accumulate some crud, almost like puss in the bottom of the test tube. I worry that this fuel, even though it would test 85 could restrict a fuel component or injector and cause an engine failure. I believe a significant number of engine failures are not necessarily due to fuel that doesn't test high enough, but for fuel that test right but impedes the performance of fuel, injectors, lines, or pumps. I wanted to introduce this specific aspect of testing as it is rarely ever discussed.

Due to the length here,I'll give folks some time to take this point in and discuss before introducing the other points .

 

[Doublewide]

My car is tuned for E70 or greater. That's the way I wanted it so I never had to worry really. Never once tested a tube at less than 70 and car still made 895whp and 933 torque. 10k miles on the set up now with zero issues and I go pedal to the metal atleast once everytime I drive it lol. On a fixed pulley too... living life on the edge

 

[Magnified]

That "worms in the test specimen" thing freaks me out. I would have serious concerns putting that in the tank. I'm sure it could simply be emulsion break down and, with sufficient sloshing / stirring and pressure from the fuel pumps everything would likely re-liquify. But damn. That's a big "likely." Thanks for your experience all.

 

[Speedy!]

I've dailied and raced on e85 for 3 years in 2 different cars. The applied methodology is the same on both cars. Zero issues om either car. Both run with same refinement and manners as with the stock calibration. Here are some tips that anyone can follow:
1. Test as often as you can. Not just to determine ethanol content but more importantly to visually inspect the test specimen before filling the tank. I have purchased e85 at a number of different stations that tested anywhere from e75 to e90. My cars have run fine on them all. Here is the concern. Some test samples have almost an opaque white color. Some had what looked like little worms in them. On occasion I would leave the specimen in the tube for a week or longer. The opaque specimen would accumulate some crud, almost like puss in the bottom of the test tube. I worry that this fuel, even though it would test 85 could restrict a fuel component or injector and cause an engine failure. I believe a significant number of engine failures are not necessarily due to fuel that doesn't test high enough, but for fuel that test right but impedes the performance of fuel, injectors, lines, or pumps. I wanted to introduce this specific aspect of testing as it is rarely ever discussed.

Due to the length here,I'll give folks some time to take this point in and discuss before introducing the other points .

We have 3 fuel "brands" around here that carry E85. Thortons, Racetrack, and Speedway. I tested all three and Speedway tested higher at E83 in March where the others were E70. I also noticed what you mention, the Speedway was crystal clear like moonshine clear, and the others had kind of a more cloudy and yellow tint. Speedway has a reputation around here for being the winner for E85 from the pump so I'll use it exclusively.

I tested a fillup yesterday at E90+ now that it's warming up here.

 

[Phast Hemi]

We have 3 fuel "brands" around here that carry E85. Thortons, Racetrack, and Speedway. I tested all three and Speedway tested higher at E83 in March where the others were E70. I also noticed what you mention, the Speedway was crystal clear like moonshine clear, and the others had kind of a more cloudy and yellow tint. Speedway has a reputation around here for being the winner for E85 from the pump so I'll use it exclusively.

I tested a fillup yesterday at E90+ now that it's warming up here.

Yes, we have speedway here also. Their e85 is always clear and I try to buy from them when I can for that reason. Ive purchased from them in winter and it usually test anywhere from e75-e80. In the summer it tests e85-e90. The other brands usually have the opaque matter in the fuel. When I buy that I will only buy what I burn can through in a day or two and also cut it with a gallon or two of 93.

 

[FFBOS]

Speedway is king around me. Have a Mobil that equals it. Thorntons and BP can be cloudy. I heard the reason this happens is because they use natural gas in the process. I’ve run plenty of tanks of the worm gas through the car. Never an issue that I could see. I prefer the moonshine though.

 

[coolblue]

Speedway is king around me. Have a Mobil that equals it. Thorntons and BP can be cloudy. I heard the reason this happens is because they use natural gas in the process. I’ve run plenty of tanks of the worm gas through the car. Never an issue that I could see. I prefer the moonshine though.

Good to know if you gotta use the worm gas it's not gonna kill your car.

 

[BULL]

Two things:

Can someone post a picture of the Worms?

I've noticed that the stickers on the test tubes tend to be haphazardly placed on the tubes, meaning that the lines for percentages can tend to drift around (up or down). Does this seems like a problem, or is the variability not enough to be a problem?

 

[coolblue]

Two things:

Can someone post a picture of the Worms?

I've noticed that the stickers on the test tubes tend to be haphazardly placed on the tubes, meaning that the lines for percentages can tend to drift around (up or down). Does this seems like a problem, or is the variability not enough to be a problem?

Most of these guys are saying the performance diff is negligible between true E75 and E85 so maybe the 1-3% variation on the tube is nothing to worry about? Still would like it to be accurate though.
And yea, I'd like to see those "worms" too. interesting.

 

[Phast Hemi]

Two things:

Can someone post a picture of the Worms?

I've noticed that the stickers on the test tubes tend to be haphazardly placed on the tubes, meaning that the lines for percentages can tend to drift around (up or down). Does this seems like a problem, or is the variability not enough to be a problem?

I'll see if I can find an old pic of a tube with worms and one with cloudy e85.

Your questions brings me to the second point I was going to make which is this: don't get hung up on the lines on the tube. They ar not %100 accurate. It is not uncommon for a tube to read 7-12% different than an ethanol content sensor. I interpret tube data more so for clarity and content of the specimen than for a specific content number.