Dodge Redeyes

[Unholy707]

I was Popeye for a Halloween once as a kid had my grandfathers pipe and everything

 

[Unholy707]

Yeah, probably wouldn’t fly today lol

 

[Unholy707]

How did the song go? “I’m popeye the sailor man, I live in a garbage can, I turned on the heater and blew up my wiener, and that’s why I live in a can”

 

[Unholy707]

Pretty sure that’s how it goes

 

[drag racer]

My lifelong love of spinach, olive oil, and cheeseburgers I owe all to watching Popeye cartoons regularly as a little boy

 

[Illegal_Demon]

For the 170, absolutely.
Only 3300 units ever.

The OGD gave birth to the Redeye, Redeye WB, WB Hellcat, Super Stock, WB Scat Pack, 1320 Scat Pack, and Super Bee. That is a lot of cars over the years to pay back that development.

The 170 is going to depend on the DC catalog.

Or, the 170 engine comes back detuned in the next gen car. But who knows, that engine is supposedly all new which means new tooling and R&D went into it. It would be a shame to waste that development for just 3,000 cars but that is probably what will happen.

Next gen using the 170 motor?

Not in this universe, lol. The next (and subsequent) gens propulsion source have clearly been laid out for us by Stellantis...EV 24/7/365 as far as the eye can see...

Interestingly a future tuned UP crate 170 could be a possibility via DC since EPA/Emissions won't matter.

 

[BULL]

Next gen using the 170 motor?

Not in this universe, lol. The next (and subsequent) gens propulsion source have clearly been laid out for us by Stellantis...EV 24/7/365 as far as the eye can see...

Interestingly a future tuned UP crate 170 could be a possibility via DC since EPA/Emissions won't matter.

At the end of the day, Dodge is a business, I don't believe they invested the money they did, however much it may have been, for only ~3,300 units.

That engine is showing up somewhere, DC at a minimum.

That's not to say I think MY24 will use it, but that hardware is going to be available.

If it was their "goodwill" towards their customers, they would have thrown in the towel when they blew up motors, not continued with development and cost in the final days of the engine.

.02

 

[Illegal_Demon]

At the end of the day, Dodge is a business, I don't believe they invested the money they did, however much it may have been, for only ~3,300 units.

That engine is showing up somewhere, DC at a minimum.

That's not to say I think MY24 will use it, but that hardware is going to be available.

If it was their "goodwill" towards their customers, they would have thrown in the towel when they blew up motors, not continued with development and cost in the final days of the engine.

.02

The global EV trends are real. Stellantis has repeatedly told us that HP SC V8s are all going the way of the dodo bird. That writing has been all over the wall for awhile now. Afterall, these cars are literally called LAST CALL, lol. IMO, we won't ever see another EPA-approved (or anyone else) in a production vehicle after 2023. (And, no niche OEMs that build 9 cars a year don't count!)

As for DC, yes, clearly that's Dodge's plan post '23. Build up existing motors, with all these kits. Will they have a tune kit for the D170? Yep, I can see that in a few years (though warrantee and street legal could be tough). How about a crate 170 motor with maybe even MORE HP than 1025? Sure, CAFE and EPA won't matter for that offering.

However, passing CAFE won't be getting any EASIER going forward that's for sh*t sure. All the while, Stellantis' own marketing shows they are going the way of the Hornet, etc, and banking on the Millennials and Z'ers.

It's tough accepting we are no longer their target audience, but man it's crystal clear that's exactly what's happening.

Still, sending us off into the night with the D170 is still an INSANE gift to ICE muscleheads and I for one still cannot believe they are actually doing it!

I definitely won't be expecting any new cars of interest from Dodge starting in 10 months. But admittedly, that's just me since I have zero interest in (performance) EV.

 

[ButterDaGreat?]

Just like I said in 2021 that a Hellephant was going to be in a production car in 2 years from a source... A new Hemi will be in a next gen production car. Motortrend said in an article last year a Hemi will be in a next gen car, I called BS but then I've had some interesting people tell me some things behind the scenes with Dodge and Tim himself the last few weeks. Now I know why Motortrend, specifically the author of the article wrote it. There is a reason why the STLA L platform was modified to allow a Hemi swap just incase some politicians get voted out of office and get off the Big 3 backs...

 

[Illegal_Demon]

Just like I said in 2021 that a Hellephant was going to be in a production car in 2 years from a source... A new Hemi will be in a next gen production car. Motortrend said in an article last year a Hemi will be in a next gen car, I called BS but then I've had some interesting people tell me some things behind the scenes with Dodge and Tim himself the last few weeks. Now I know why Motortrend, specifically the author of the article wrote it. There is a reason why the STLA L platform was modified to allow a Hemi swap just incase some politicians get voted out of office and get off the Big 3 backs...

It's one thing to (maybe) have a (more fuel efficient) next gen hemi in play but another to have an 800hp+ SuperCharged V8 in a new car. I definitely don't see that ever happening again for Dodge or anyone else. They won't/can't be paying these credits anymore. At lest for the next 5+ years it's (primarily) EV or bust at this point. Though, having some ICE (with hybrid or twin turbo help) obviously could work. See Ford, GM. Both are committed to doing that at least for the next 3-4 years. Dodge is in EPA fine hell though. Very different situation for them given they made a deal with the devil for the past 10 yrs. With nothing really helping them on the CAFE menu (unlike GM and Ford) they simply don't have the luxury of continuing to put their middle finger up in the air with giant SC low mpg V8s. It's why they are bypassing performance hybrid and going straight to EV performance starting in 9 months. Hard to deny that's where Stellantis is headed.

As for politicians, that (might) happen in 2 years, and from there, it takes years to pivot for auto OEMs. At that point, Stellantis (a Euro company let's not forget that reality) will be full on the EV train, which means Dodge is on that same train or maybe slotted for the boneyard ala Pontiac and Oldsmobile.

 

[Boris]

They got a hellcat engine that runs on e85. That alone gives them wiggle room on the CAFE department.
I think on SUVs it boosted their MPG 10 or 12 in their calculations (i need to find the article i read on this).

Dodge also bought a large amount of ZF hybrid transmissions that give upwards of 150 or so ft-lbs of torque.
If that can be applied like the 4xe (49mpg) or Pacifica hybrid (84mpg), then yes the Hellcat can live.

Additionally, if the new Charger EV can sell like hot cakes, they can further offset cars like the Scats and Hellcats and even a Viper.

The hard deadline is 2035. Things get tough in 24-26 but even if they didn't, this generation probably should be retired for something "fresh"
People are not really beating down the door for a last call SXT or RT etc. Even Scat Packs are showing up with discounts on them. Nobody seems to want a narrow body Hellcat either as dealers finally getting back to MSRP and even under on those.

Keeping 100k performance gas cars around will help tremendously to pay for the EV research over the next decade.

Chevy is supposedly dropping an 800+ hp twin turbo ZR1 and a 1000+hp Zora versions of the C8, then bringing a C9 out. And while everyone seems convinced the next Camaro is EV only, I think it gets the next gen V8 as well.

Dodge can't be rolling with a Durango/Stealth SUV, Hornet, and EV. They won't make it.

 

[BULL]

What if the next Administration rolls the CAFE standards backwards...

Did we just see Europe roll back some of their EV regulations?

 

[Speedy!]

@BULL and @Boris got it right. Dodge is a company that exists to sell cars. Stellantis is European and hasn't figured out what they bought yet but they'll get a real dose of reality in 2024. Tim and team know this and I'm sure have a backup plan. They are literally killing the golden goose that even put them on the MAP! A Dodge anything wasn't even close to being on my radar until the Challenger was re-introduced in 2008 and the same can be said for a LOT of people.

So they do some hybrids and an EV or two and let those sell for a year, then they have those to offset a performance model or two and BACK comes the V8 bigger and badder than ever in a maybe lighter platform. I agree they wouldn't invest this much R&D in a platform they don't intend to use in the future, same as the OG Demon being followed by the Redeye.

I love my Hellcat but it is very long in tooth and due an update. I hope they keep it "muscle car" but modernize a bit with a smaller platform that shaves some weight and keeps the horse power high....if they're slick it'll be AWD.

Or they don't and Dodge goes belly up.

 

[Boris]

And its not like its cutting edge technology either.

https://jalopnik.com/the-887-hp-por...gside Porsche's new Le,to 94 miles per gallon.

887hp with a combined EV/NA gas V8. And the V8 made 600hp on its own!

A Demon/Hellcat/Redeye making 1000hp and getting 85mpg, the greenie's heads will explode

 

[ButterDaGreat?]

Remember that in a couple years, Stellantis will have about 20ish EV's on sale. Plenty of credits will be available for a new Hemi compared to now. There was supposed to be some performance hybrids I was keeping my eye on (Trackhawk, Grand Wagoneer, TRX) and the last I heard they were having issues, hence why you see Stellantis being mute on a hybrid inline 6 hurricane 510. The Stellantis CEO has come out in the last few months critical about the Gov forcing EV's and the 40% increased cost and they are about to fire ALOT of people to make some kind of profit. There will be a need in the future to make a ICE halo vehicle since they are way more profitable per dollar compared to EV.

Stellantis already spent the R&D money to have hurricanes, electric motors, and the current Hemi's fit in the next gen platforms. Plus Stellantis is experimenting with alternative fuels. A new V8 will happen, it's only a matter of when. Sooner some folks get bumped out of office and the EV bubble fails, the sooner you'll see them. Once I heard of Tim's talk in the background, I fully believe the Hemi will return within 4 years.

 

[Boris]

The HD trucks will need it at some point.
Ford's 7.3L makes 430hp and 475ft-lbs
GM's 6.6L makes 401hp and 464ft-lbs

Ram 6.4L makes 410hp and 429ft-lbs

The HP is all pretty similar but the newer Ford and GM engines are designed for more torque. Let's not kid ourselves, the trucks are the real cash kings for the automakers here in the states.

Ford even ditched their old V10 and didn't bother with the 32V quad cam Coyote variant for their HD lineup.

It will be very interesting to see if Ram/Stellantis rolls out an HD gasser engine based on the Hurricane. As equipped in the GW, its 510hp and 500ft-lbs of torque, which would easily beat the gassers of GM and Ford. But will this engine live like the reliable old pushrods?
More importantly, will it be accepted by those who only buy HD trucks.

For the truck market alone, I'd think Stellantis/Ram will make a new V8. A lot of the parts on the 392 are shared with the Hellcat engine.

If Ram puts up funding for a new V8, it will find its way back to Dodge. And if they can get the EV credits, a second gen Hellcat may see the light of day.

But I also wouldn't be surprised to see Dodge try and make a Hellcat equivalent Hurricane powered car first.

Interesting times are ahead. But its not the end of ICE right now, just the current generation as we know it.

 

[Speedy!]

So you can do a little research and find what car manufactures produce is directly tied to gov't regulations or "credits" whether they be tax, cash, or other. A few years ago flex fuel vehicles were all the rage and most manufacturers has mutliple models that were flex fuel. Then suddenly they started to disappear. Well Obama did away with the incentives to build FFVs and there ya go. Now the incentives are to build EVs and the car companies will chase that cash cow until the incentives for them to do so are pulled.

If we eliminated every gas powered car in the U.S. tomorrow it would have a 2% impact on lower green house gasses. Car companies know this and they also know there aren't enough minerals on the planet to build the batteries required to make the switch. Some kind of alternative fuel or a mix there of will be the long term answer.

 

[ButterDaGreat?]

The HD trucks will need it at some point.
Ford's 7.3L makes 430hp and 475ft-lbs
GM's 6.6L makes 401hp and 464ft-lbs

Ram 6.4L makes 410hp and 429ft-lbs

The HP is all pretty similar but the newer Ford and GM engines are designed for more torque. Let's not kid ourselves, the trucks are the real cash kings for the automakers here in the states.

Ford even ditched their old V10 and didn't bother with the 32V quad cam Coyote variant for their HD lineup.

It will be very interesting to see if Ram/Stellantis rolls out an HD gasser engine based on the Hurricane. As equipped in the GW, its 510hp and 500ft-lbs of torque, which would easily beat the gassers of GM and Ford. But will this engine live like the reliable old pushrods?
More importantly, will it be accepted by those who only buy HD trucks.

For the truck market alone, I'd think Stellantis/Ram will make a new V8. A lot of the parts on the 392 are shared with the Hellcat engine.

If Ram puts up funding for a new V8, it will find its way back to Dodge. And if they can get the EV credits, a second gen Hellcat may see the light of day.

But I also wouldn't be surprised to see Dodge try and make a Hellcat equivalent Hurricane powered car first.

Interesting times are ahead. But its not the end of ICE right now, just the current generation as we know it.

Well don't forget that Cummins is making a fuel agnostic engine that'll use the same block but run multiple fuels from diesel, gas, natural gas, hydrogen, and I believe propane. Only from the heads upwards is different to run multiple fuels and tank obviously. I believe Cummins will have the first versions of that engine coming in 2024/2025. It seems likely Ram will go this route since they can use the different configurations for commercial and fleet. But Stellantis only really needs to design one V8 and it'll fit in dozens of STLA L and Frame vehicles from the new Challenger to TRX to 300 to Grand Wagoneer

 

[Illegal_Demon]

What if the next Administration rolls the CAFE standards backwards...

Did we just see Europe roll back some of their EV regulations?

Even so, wouldn't that take several years to reverse? And the gazillion-dollar investment Tim and every other OEM CEO has put in would then be flushed to swap back to guzzling V8s while the push for EV/low carbon all goes away? No more activists, political push...all gone? Maybe some hybrid action, efficient inline V6 with twin turbos and electric assist. Yes.

Like Tim has repeatedly said (along with GM's 1LECamaro) SC V8's are (permanently) dead.

I get it. I love my big fat SC ICE mobiles too! But "wishcasting" almost never ends well !

 

[Jimmy N.]

... efficient inline V6 with twin turbos and electric assist.

I can't even imagine the development costs for an inline V6.

Would the crankshaft make a 180 and then go back to the other three cylinders?