Jon's Hellcat

[jonx96]

Because wideband all the time. What was the timing pulled for?

Manifold temps being too hot.

 

[BULL]

Manifold temps being too hot.

Fixed it for you...

 

[Speedy!]

Which PID exactly? What was the temp and what is the scale in the tune?

 

[jonx96]

Which PID exactly? What was the temp and what is the scale in the tune?

It is the IAT advance showing it. I did hear a little air. So I may run it again and try again. But I will say I had laptop issues over winter. I lost my channnel list and my personal tunes. Now everything is backed up. But I didn't log manifold temps at the track only Intake Air Temp (SAE) Which was 111 at the start of the run and 86 at the end.

 

[Speedy!]

I monitor ACT (air charge temp) and at ChallengerFest last year I was seeing a 2 deg reduction in the PID "IAT Advance" at 150° +. Not a huge deal and I found that pretty normal to keep things happy. This was on E85. Ambient was in the low to mid 80s F.

Mine starts to kick in at about 130° ACT.

You could always adjust your IAT timing modifier map or the reference temp, but I like to leave mine on the conservative side.

 

[jonx96]

I monitor ACT (air charge temp) and at ChallengerFest last year I was seeing a 2 deg reduction in the PID "IAT Advance" at 150° +. Not a huge deal and I found that pretty normal to keep things happy. This was on E85. Ambient was in the low to mid 80s F.

Mine starts to kick in at about 130° ACT.

You could always adjust your IAT timing modifier map or the reference temp, but I like to leave mine on the conservative side.

Ya I had it slightly adjusted. I just adjusted it a little more.
car is still going pretty quick. I’m just getting ideas together.

 

[Hpindy]

Keep up the good work .. it comes in
Baby steps .. keep chipping away at it .

Sent from my Armor 8 Pro using Tapatalk

 

[jonx96]

@Speedy! we started talking to much about temps what did you mean by your comment with widebands with meth.

 

[Speedy!]

Meth acts like a fuel among other things, as I'm sure you know. The widebands will pick it up and dial back the injectors to compensate. It's not a good fit on a Hellcat and based on my experience with it on my 4Runner I wouldn't trust it on a system like the Hellcat. I've made it work on the 4Runner but I'm on my 4th pump in 4 years and if that pump failure happened on a Hellcat it'd probably roast the motor.

 

[jonx96]

Meth acts like a fuel among other things, as I'm sure you know. The widebands will pick it up and dial back the injectors to compensate. It's not a good fit on a Hellcat and based on my experience with it on my 4Runner I wouldn't trust it on a system like the Hellcat. I've made it work on the 4Runner but I'm on my 4th pump in 4 years and if that pump failure happened on a Hellcat it'd probably roast the motor.

Well I guess for me the fuel wouldn’t be a deal breaker as I could tune for it. But I also wouldn’t expect it to be a huge difference .
Also- I’d be looking to run this with e85 and primarily to keep temps down so if pump failed it wouldn’t matter much.
I know there are people making more hp than us that run meth injection on other platforms. But yes the pump failing could be bad if on pump gas but I know a lot of people on other platforms doing it and I’d hope they had better luck.
Not saying this is something I’m doing yet just considering.

 

[vortecd]

Why I liked using the Mr. Freeze with my vortech. There are no electronics or pumps. It worked off of boost pressure forcing it in before the supercharger. Just not the right setup for us

My dyno graph is still on there from 13 years ago

https://www.andersonfordmotorsport.com/afm-mr-freeze-water-methanol-injection-system-gen-2/

 

[Speedy!]

Well I guess for me the fuel wouldn’t be a deal breaker as I could tune for it. But I also wouldn’t expect it to be a huge difference .
Also- I’d be looking to run this with e85 and primarily to keep temps down so if pump failed it wouldn’t matter much.
I know there are people making more hp than us that run meth injection on other platforms. But yes the pump failing could be bad if on pump gas but I know a lot of people on other platforms doing it and I’d hope they had better luck.
Not saying this is something I’m doing yet just considering.

I'm thinking through how you would tune for it? No matter what commanded lambda you shoot for, the car will dial the injectors back to compensate for the add'l fuel of the meth. Unless you just run it pig rich either way I guess? Seems like a lot of hassle to avoid 2deg of timing reduction that could probably just be tuned out?

 

[Speedy!]

Why I liked using the Mr. Freeze with my vortech. There are no electronics or pumps. It worked off of boost pressure forcing it in before the supercharger. Just not the right setup for us

My dyno graph is still on there from 13 years ago

https://www.andersonfordmotorsport.com/afm-mr-freeze-water-methanol-injection-system-gen-2/

That's funny on the dyno sheet. Being around things for so long I get a chuckle when some of my stuff from 10 years ago pops up.

On my 4Runner I can't adjust the tune, I have to externally influence the computer to do what I want. When I put the meth on the truck, I data logged and monitored timing advance and found the sweet spot of the mixture where the truck was giving me all it had, which is around 19-21 deg at WOT depending on the weather. It made a huge difference over the 12 or so degrees I was seeing without meth, but it's a 2002 4Runner not super sophisticated like the Hellcat and the supercharger is NON INTERCOOLED so it needed something with the 10-11psi I'm running on it.

 

[jonx96]

I'm thinking through how you would tune for it? No matter what commanded lambda you shoot for, the car will dial the injectors back to compensate for the add'l fuel of the meth. Unless you just run it pig rich either way I guess? Seems like a lot of hassle to avoid 2deg of timing reduction that could probably just be tuned out?

I guess to me it seems like less hassle than adding a killer chiller type system. I don't see the issue with tuning for it.
The run ended pulling 4 deg. I did "desensitize" the timing being pulled from heat a little but the efficiency still won't be as good as if it was cool. Also thinking about the killer chiller it is going to use HP to run the chiller. Which sure in the staging lanes I could probably cool it enough where I don't have to run it down the track. I'd think something like the meth would be even more of a gain for someone like @DGatzby with what he does. Extra safety on top of the 93 plus cooler temps.

I am going to make a few passes this weekend and monitor some more temps in my logs.

There is only one way to find out and that's to run it on my car and see what happens.

Why I liked using the Mr. Freeze with my vortech. There are no electronics or pumps. It worked off of boost pressure forcing it in before the supercharger. Just not the right setup for us

My dyno graph is still on there from 13 years ago

https://www.andersonfordmotorsport.com/afm-mr-freeze-water-methanol-injection-system-gen-2/

You and I have been talking about this offline but I am wanting more reasons than not for our platform
I have been waiting for you to just tell me to do spacers

 

[vortecd]

I guess to me it seems like less hassle than adding a killer chiller type system. I don't see the issue with tuning for it.
The run ended pulling 4 deg. I did "desensitize" the timing being pulled from heat a little but the efficiency still won't be as good as if it was cool. Also thinking about the killer chiller it is going to use HP to run the chiller. Which sure in the staging lanes I could probably cool it enough where I don't have to run it down the track. I'd think something like the meth would be even more of a gain for someone like @DGatzby with what he does. Extra safety on top of the 93 plus cooler temps.

I am going to make a few passes this weekend and monitor some more temps in my logs.

There is only one way to find out and that's to run it on my car and see what happens.

You and I have been talking about this offline but I am wanting more reasons than not for our platform
I have been waiting for you to just tell me to do spacers

how many times do I have to tell you? I even found deals for you and you still didn't buy them

Spacers help but not the best fix. I think the inter chillers would be better then meth.

 

[Speedy!]

Worst case scenario for mine was MSHS KY back in June 2020. It was probably 90 deg ambient, humid, DA was over 4,000 and I had to hot lap 3 passes in a row I think. My max ACT was 167° F and that's the highest I've ever seen it. LTR (sc coolant) was 120° F.

My ACT seems to want to run right around 70-75° over ambient temp at the top of the quarter mile assuming a fully warmed up starting point. This is on 17ish psi of boost.

As a reference, my old car ran about 90° over ambient at the top of the quarter so I'd see 170s on that one.

I'm a KISS kinda guy when it comes to these cars, so no chiller for me. If my ACTs were getting up to 180-190 I'd be looking at something. A spritz of the happy happy probably just to cool things and add a little pep in the process.

 

[jonx96]

Worst case scenario for mine was MSHS KY back in June 2020. It was probably 90 deg ambient, humid, DA was over 4,000 and I had to hot lap 3 passes in a row I think. My max ACT was 167° F and that's the highest I've ever seen it. LTR (sc coolant) was 120° F.

My ACT seems to want to run right around 70-75° over ambient temp at the top of the quarter mile assuming a fully warmed up starting point. This is on 17ish psi of boost.

As a reference, my old car ran about 90° over ambient at the top of the quarter so I'd see 170s on that one.

I'm a KISS kinda guy when it comes to these cars, so no chiller for me. If my ACTs were getting up to 180-190 I'd be looking at something. A spritz of the happy happy probably just to cool things and add a little pep in the process.

@16GoManGoHC2 already told me to just do that But my reply was than I just become a slow nitrous car But yes money wise I could just do that. A 50hp shot would be plenty.

 

[fumanchu182]

Get a killer chiller.

 

[Mean Cat]

I guess to me it seems like less hassle than adding a killer chiller type system. I don't see the issue with tuning for it.
The run ended pulling 4 deg. I did "desensitize" the timing being pulled from heat a little but the efficiency still won't be as good as if it was cool. Also thinking about the killer chiller it is going to use HP to run the chiller. Which sure in the staging lanes I could probably cool it enough where I don't have to run it down the track. I'd think something like the meth would be even more of a gain for someone like @DGatzby with what he does. Extra safety on top of the 93 plus cooler temps.

I am going to make a few passes this weekend and monitor some more temps in my logs.

There is only one way to find out and that's to run it on my car and see what happens.

You and I have been talking about this offline but I am wanting more reasons than not for our platform
I have been waiting for you to just tell me to do spacers

The a/c shuts off at wot, so no HP beings used during a pass or hit on the street.

 

[jonx96]

Out of curiosity how well does the redeye and demon chiller work compared to aftermarket? I was reviewing a redeye log last night that I was tuning and his temps were still up there even letting the cool down run. Maybe he needed to give it more time but it sure didn't work super quick.